UW School of Law Transcript

Cary Alan Johnson

Friday, February 12

Kellye Testy:

Well good afternoon, everyone. I'm Kellye Testy, the dean of the law school. It's great to have you all here today. I'm really happy to welcome the executive director of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, Cary Alan Johnson. He will be more formally introduced in just a minute, but I wanted to make an announcement and just a little bit of a comment before we begin today. The announcement is for our law students. I want to make sure you remember that this Friday, we have Judge Mary Yu, from the King County Superior Court, actually bringing her court here to the law school. And this is just a fabulous experience to really see court in action, and so I just want to mention that.

Spread the word. I hope there will be a lot of attendance. The oral arguments start at nine o'clock. And just a little bit of a warning, Judge Yu is a rather formal judge. So don't be late and don't wear a hat. I do hope you take advantage of that. It's just terrific.

Now let me say, by way of our program today, that I was just delighted and so thrilled to hear from the director of what I always called IGLHRC, which is some kind of an acronym. It's former executive director and I were good friends, and we used to joke about that quite a bit. But I wanted to just say that I was so pleased that this program was being brought to the law school, because this area of working for gay and lesbian rights and human rights globally is just so important.

One of the things that we, of course, need to recognize is that discrimination based on sexuality, sexual orientation, and gender identity is, in many ways, still one of the only kinds of discrimination that's still allowed as a matter of formal law and formal equality.

I think we all need to work together to alleviate subordination based on gender and race and so many other things. But it's really still amazing to me that in the United States, in 2010, it's perfectly legal in a lot of places to just outright discriminate based on sexual orientation, or sexuality more generally.

Now that said, around the world, if we look outside of the United States, the situation is, of course, even more vexing in many other parts of the world. And so, I've just always so admired the global movement for LGBT rights and this organization's work at the very forefront of that. So I welcome you. It's great to have you with us today, Mr. Johnson. And thank you very much for being with University of Washington.

It's now my pleasure to turn this over to my colleague, Jamie Mayerfield. And I'll let you take the program from here. Jamie, thanks for being with us today.


Jamie Mayerfield:

Thank you Dean Testy, and thank you all very much for coming. I teach in the political science department and the Law, Societies & Justice Program. I want to start by thanking the co-sponsors of today's lecture. They are the William H. Gates Public Service Law Scholarship Program, the Center for Human Rights, Outlaws, the Law School Center for Human Rights and Justice, the International Law Society, and the Kew Law Foundation. I'm delighted to introduce our speaker today, Cary Alan Johnson. He graduated from Sarah Lawrence College and received a master's degree in international affairs from Columbia University. He has sense devoted his life to protecting the world's most vulnerable individuals from poverty, disease, violence, discrimination, and persecution. His work has encompassed social and economic development in Africa and the rights of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgender persons.

He has worked for a wide range of relief development and human rights organizations including Amnesty International, Africare, the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, and Planned Parenthood. He has lived a large part of his life in Africa including Rwanda, Zimbabwe, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and Southern Africa.

Five years ago, he became the Senior Africa Specialist for the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission. And as a Senior Africa Specialist, he launched major projects to combat AIDS and HIV infection among same-sex practicing people, and to challenge government persecution of LGBT persons throughout the region.

He established a presence for LGBT activists at the African Commission for Human and People's Rights. And he is the author of IGLHRC's, the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission's acclaimed report, "Off the Map: How HIV/AIDS Programming is Failing Same-Sex Practicing People in Africa".

He has helped break the silence surrounding LGBT rights in Africa at a time when sexual minorities in that region are facing intensified persecution. Just over a year ago, he was appointed executive director of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission.

Mr. Johnson is a leader in the human rights movement, and we're very fortunate to have him here today. So please join me in welcoming Cary Alan Johnson.


Cary Alan Johnson:

Good afternoon. Thanks so much for that introduction and thank you for having me. I have the distinction of being the executive director of the organization with the very worst acronym in the world: IGLHRC, the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission. And we've thought about changing the name, but 20 years into this work, we feel like we've established some name recognition. And so, one thinks about making those changes, but for now, we'll stick to IGLHRC. And it's really a great pleasure to be with you today. I was asked to speak with you about the global movement for LGBT rights and what role IGLHRC plays in that movement.

So I'd like to talk to you about some of the victories we've also experienced over the last year, some of the biggest challenges that we've faced, and the setbacks. And finally, I'd like to talk to you about what I might perceive and what you might perceive as your role - as lawyers, as legal scholars, as activists - as you move forward with your careers and your lives, working and trying to address human rights violations in the global LGBT movement.

My organization's mission, quite simply, is to help create a world in which people enjoy the full breadth of their human rights, regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity or expression. And I want to break that mission down a little bit, because it will explain a little bit what our theory of social change is and how we move forward as an organization, and as a movement.

Our mission is to help create a world. We do not see ourselves as actors acting independently. When we created this organization, and I'm happy to say I was on the first board of directors of the organization 20 years ago, we were really the only organization doing this work.

Groups like Amnesty International, which were in the lead of the international human rights movement, did not consider gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender people arrested or killed because of their sexual orientation to be, with regard to arbitrary arrest, prisoners of conscience. So one of our first struggles was to work with worldwide movements like Amnesty to change their mind on decisions like that.

But we work as part of an international movement that has local components, regional components, and international components. And in our work, we are always trying to foreground the voices of local activists, activists that are working at grassroots levels, in their communities, in their towns, in their churches, in their cities, and in their states. And I'll come back to that in a bit.

We work from a human rights framework because we think that a human rights framework is one of the frameworks that has validity in terms of bringing about social change. And by human rights framework, I'm talking about the sets of treaties and obligations that states have signed and that are part of holding states accountable to the commitments they make to their citizens and to the citizens of the world.

Starting, of course, with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and then all of the treaties that go into making the promises of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights real and making them law, specifically, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights, the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, the Children's Rights Convention, etc.

And then, of course, those are functioning at the international level, but then we have regional human rights treaties which are equally, and sometimes, more important in enforcing and promoting rights of LGBT people at the local level, treaties like the African Convention on Human and People's Rights, etc.

We work around sexual orientation, gender identity and expression. We specifically zero in on that community and those sets of individuals. So our theory of change is that the lives of individual LGBT people can be improved through collaborative local, regional, and international cooperation, in the context of a human rights model. There are lots of other models. Service delivery models. Civil rights models. We're working specifically from a human rights model.

We also believe that the international LGBT rights movement is part of a larger set of rights movements. And we situate ourselves sort of within that sect of concentric rights circles, which include the sexual rights movement; which include rights for people to fully express their sexuality, their sexual orientation and be protected from unwanted sexual advances; the rights of sex workers; the rights of people who are HIV+ to sexuality, to marriages, and to childrearing, for example. So we situate ourselves firmly within a sexual rights movement.

We situate ourselves within a women's rights movement, which has, at many points, been resistant to acknowledging and promoting the rights of lesbian and bisexual women, and transgender men and women. We situate ourselves within a movement for minority rights, which include linguistic minorities, which include ethnic minorities.

And we situate ourselves within movements for prisoner rights, because we know that LGBT people who face arbitrary arrest and detention and who are in prison are at particular risk in detention, and face particular violence and face particular lack of access to services when in prison.

So we work in collaboration with all of these movements, which don't always want to work with us, which sometimes fear that working with a validly LGBT organization will compromise their mission and will make their job harder. But we strive to make connections with these movements by working in four major areas.

First, we work for the repeal of laws and policies that criminalize, stigmatize, and prevent individuals from living full, safe, empowered lives based on their sexual orientation and gender identity. You see we start by firmly situating ourselves within a legal framework.

You probably know this, but more than 80 countries around the world still criminalize consensual same-sex acts in relationships. And almost every country in the world still has legislation that, in some ways, criminalizes cross-dressing, or other forms of gender non-conforming expression.

Now many of these countries, not all, but many, have inherited, particularly sodomy laws, from their colonial masters, specifically from Britain. France had pretty much abolished its sodomy laws when most of its colonies went into the decolonization process.

But the British left a very harsh legacy for LGBT people in the parts of the world that they colonized, and we are still working to try and fight off that legacy. And that's why I feel, in fact, that the United Kingdom has a very special responsibility to provide support and funding for decriminalization efforts in countries in the Commonwealth.

Other countries that continue to criminalize same-sex acts, cross-dressing, and other sorts of behaviors that criminalize transgender people's lives have these laws as a result of the imposition of Sharia, or other religiously-inspired laws.

The best example I can give you of the ways in which IGLHRC, my organization, works against those laws is by telling you a bit about the situation in Uganda. It's a situation that many of you have heard about. It's probably the most well-publicized example of homophobic laws being implemented around the world.

Some of the world is moving towards decriminalization and greater acceptance. Other parts of the world, and even within a country, there are sometimes different strains. Uganda is moving towards further violence, criminalization, and stigmatization of LGBT people.

Just by way of background, in March 2009, we first heard a tale of a conference that was going to happen in Kampala, which is the capital of Uganda. It was sponsored by some shadowy group that we never heard of called the Family Life Network.

And when I say we never heard of it, we have staff on the ground who are from the countries that we focus on. So we have a Uganda trans-man on our staff, and in our South African office, we have a Kenyan human rights attorney on our staff. We've never heard of these people.

But little by little, we came to find out that, in fact, this conference was being orchestrated by U.S.-based evangelicals, whose failed strategy here in the United States is now being taken on the road as a way of defeating emerging LGBT movements in other parts of the world before they even get onto their feet.

This seminar featured a number of U.S. speakers who are known for their efforts to dehumanize LGBT people, and promote a belief that homosexuality is an illness and can and should be cured. The speakers included people like Scott Lively, Don Schmierer, and Caleb Lee Brundidge. Lively is a person whom you may have heard of who lost a lot of credibility by coming up with a very strange explanation for the Holocaust and the role of gay people within Nazi Germany.

Brundidge is affiliated with the extreme Prophetic Ministries in Phoenix. And Schmierer is a member of the board of Exodus International. So these folks are going to Uganda to put on a conference to scare people, to scare Ugandans, to whip up a fury and frenzy that there's an international homosexual agenda. And that international homosexual agenda is to eat your children, to molest your children, and to promote an agenda that's un-Christian, that's un-African. And people bought into it.

We had no idea at the time that the purpose of this conference, horrible as it was...And we're strong believers in the First Amendment. As long as you're not practicing hate speech or promoting violence, you are free to say what you like. But we had no idea that this conference was setting the stage for the introduction of a piece of legislation worse than any legislation we have seen in the 20 years that we have been in existence.

Six months after this conference, the Ugandan parliament began debating a bill called the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. I'm sure you've heard about it. First of all, homosexuality is already illegal in Uganda under Section 140 of the Criminal Code, which is a holdover of British colonialism. In 1990, the Ugandan parliament raised the penalty from 14 years to life imprisonment.

The Anti-Homosexuality Bill takes the next step. And what it does is it makes many instances of relationships punishable by death. The death penalty would be the punishment for what's referred to as "aggravated homosexuality". The bill is pretty aggravating.

But "aggravated homosexuality" would be things like an HIV+ person being involved in a homosexual act, or repeated homosexuality. So if you've been arrested once before, and you're again arrested, you are now eligible for the death penalty.

The bill goes so beyond the Ugandan constitution and regional and international law, it's ridiculous. It says that anyone who commits a homosexual act outside of Uganda can be prosecuted under Ugandan law. It removes Uganda's commitments to all of its international treaties that would be in conflict with the anti-homosexuality law. And this law is still being debated in the Ugandan parliament today.

Our organization has been working against this law, and we've done it in a number of ways. We've been engaged in letter writing campaigns to the Ugandan government, like they're really going to listen. But there are still people in the government, in parliament, who have to listen to what we're saying.

We also have found that the most effective way is to look towards other states. We live in a world community. Uganda is part of the African Union, and it's part of the United Nations. So we've been trying to put pressure on many of Uganda's partners such as the United States, such as South Africa.

And let me just speak for a minute about South Africa. In terms of LGBT rights, South Africa has been both a beacon of the possibilities for real change and a disappointment. As you know, South Africa has one of the most progressive constitutions in the world.

It has language in its constitution that promises protections based on a number of categories including sexual orientation and gender identity. South Africa is one of the five countries in the world that has protected and legislated for same-sex marriages. So there are a lot of very positive things happening in South Africa.

At the same time, South Africa completely shirks its responsibilities with regard to its role in the international arena. South Africa consistently votes against membership of LGBT organizations in the United States and in the United Nations bodies as observers.

And there's quite a bit of anti-LGBT violence within the country that South Africa fails to address. So that's my example of the first piece of work that we do, which is against legislation that criminalizes same-sex acts and criminalizes LGBT people in general.

Second, we also work for the introduction and implementation of laws and policies that protect people from discrimination, violence, and stigma based on sexual orientation and gender identity. This work can happen at the domestic, the regional, or the international level. A wonderful example of this is the recent decision that was made by the Inter-American Human Rights Commission to protect the rights of lesbian and gay people around custody cases.

Third, we work for the full enjoyment of social, economic, and cultural rights of people regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity and expression. And we work for the range of social rights. And when we talk about economic, social, and cultural rights as different from political and civil rights, - though they are certainly all linked - we're talking here about rights like the right to housing, the right to health, and the right to education.

One of the most important social rights, for example, the right to health, is guaranteed under Article 12 of the International Covenant on Economic and Social Rights. It's systematically denied to LGBT people in a variety of ways. From gender-based violence that's visited on lesbian women, to lack of access to hormone treatments and other treatments for transgender people, to poor prison conditions.

But one of the most compelling and devastating failures of states to protect the right to health is the denial of access to HIV prevention, treatment, and care services. We know that men who have sex with men are many times more likely to be vulnerable to HIV.

In Africa, men who have sex with men are up to nine times more likely to be HIV+ due to a variety of interlocking set of circumstances: lack of access to services because they're gay; increased vulnerability as a result of discrimination, as a result of stigma. But we also know that less than 1% of the funding for HIV programs worldwide is going towards programs that address the vulnerability of men who have sex with men.

The continued existence of sodomy laws in more than 80 countries around the world, in and of itself, makes gay men and bisexual men more vulnerable to HIV and AIDS. I was with some partners from UNAIDS the other day, and we were talking about the Caribbean.

And just statistically, we know that in countries where acts between same-sex people are still illegal - such as in Jamaica and Trinidad - and where those laws create a level of violence for LGBT people, seroprevalence rates are higher. In other countries in the region that never had sodomy laws, seroprevalence rates are lower.

These laws create an environment in which men who have sex with men have to hide. And for anyone who's involved in public health, hiding does not create an environment in which you can seek the treatment, the prevention, or the education that you need. Wives and female partners of men who have sex with men are forced to hide along with them. And this creates this "dance of disaster" in which heterosexual women and men who have sex with men are made shockingly vulnerable to the devastation of HIV through harmful, archaic laws.

Law comes into play again in providing cover for bad government policies including the refusal to provide HIV services. The Ugandan government, for example, says, many governments say this, that they can't include men who have sex with men, or transgender people, or lesbians in their HIV prevention programs. Why? Because the law says that homosexuality is illegal. And if the law says it's illegal, we can't include them in our strategies. We would be promoting an unlawful act.

Going further, law plays another role. Governments arrest, time and time again, HIV activists who are working on behalf of LGBT people. In China, LGBT activists who were doing HIV prevention work were rounded up in parks. In Senegal, nine gay men were arrested in the midst of holding an HIV prevention seminar in their home.

In Kampala, at the U.S. government-sponsored, HIV Implementers Conference, three Ugandan activists were arrested for coming into a hall just like this, and holding up signs that say, "LGBT people need a type of prevention too, " arrested and hauled off to jail, and charged. Luckily, we were able to work with various places to get them out of jail.

So, finally the fourth area that we work in is against violence, specifically addressing the issue of violence. Because we realize that specifically for lesbian women, whose lives in many parts of the world are kind of circumscribed, and who do not operate as much in the public sphere, so aren't as subjected to arbitrary arrests and detentions, the policing of their behavior happens in the home.

It happens through honor killings. It happens through forced marriages. It happens through a situation of domestic violence that is mainly contained in the home, and in the community. So, there is a specific need to address violence, specifically as it impacts on gender non-conforming women.

One of the ways we are doing this is through a multi-year campaign that is mainly focused on Asia, to work with lesbian rights groups in Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Thailand, and China, to research how violence is impacting on their lives as lesbian bisexual women, and to present that research in ways that can change laws, and that can change minds.

So, what are some of our big wins for the year? How do we feel we have been successful in the past year? The judgment in the Kara Natalia case. The decision by the Inter-American Commission for Human Rights to contradict a decision by the Chilean Supreme Court, and to say that sexual orientation cannot be used as a means for determining custody.

The lesbian woman, whose children were taken away from her when she became part of a lesbian relationship, and for 15 years she battled to regain custody of her children. The Inter-American Commission of Human Rights made a decision just about a month ago, that sexual orientation could not be used as a way of denying someone the custody of their children. One big victory!

The second big victory this year; the reading down of Article 377, the Sodomy Law in India, the world's biggest democracy if you will. Not in India. I am sorry--in Delhi. It is unclear what impact the decision will have on the entire country, but within the Delhi area, millions of people who were at risk of arrest, at risk of blackmail, at risk of persecution, because their sexual orientation was criminalized, are no longer living under that stuff. Huge victory!

And very important also, victory, because of India's strategic importance, it is a country in the global south, in the east, in which it can't be chalked up to being, "This is a Western thing. This is a White thing. This is a non-African thing. This is a non-Asian thing."

It was a decision made by courts in an Asian country, about the rights of people in that country, that expanded those rights in a way that was proper. So, it is an important step, and we feel it will have reverberations throughout countries of the commonwealth. Another victory!

I mentioned to you the case of nine cynical east men, who had been arrested while they were in their home engaging in an HIV prevention seminar. They were sentenced to eight years in prison. That conviction was overturned on appeal.

The importance of it, it is just one case, it is just nine guys, but the importance of that is it says that the rule of law can work. If a lower court makes a bad decision, then a higher court can overturn it and there can be justice in such cases.

The lawyers in those cases worked, presented proper arguments, and that conviction was overturned on appeal, and those men are now free. I won't say they are back to their life's, because the level of media exposure and stigma. Many of them were thrown out of their homes. Many of them cannot find jobs now. So, I mean their lives have been irrevocably changed, but they are now free.

I had a chance to actually visit them in detention, and then again visit them after they had been released. We are still trying to find ways to help them reintegrate into their lives.

Then I would cite finally as an important gain, the January 2010 lifting of the US HIV immigration ban. For 15 years the United States refused to allow, except under very certain special circumstances, people who were HIV positive from applying for immigration or short-term stays here in the United States. That discrimination was lifted in January 2010.

What have been our setbacks, some of the biggest setbacks we have had? The introduction of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill in New Ghana. A piece of legislation that we are all very afraid of the consequences of.

So, I think I am going to just move forward very quickly, and just sort of say what I think your role might be, as people, many of whom are moving into legal careers. I think that we're making a common commitment here, whether we are lawyers, or whether we are activists.

We are making a commitment to be on the sexual rights stage internationally, from a courtroom, to the classroom, to healthcare centers, to the picket line. We are working as advocates, and we're working to refine and articulate, and then deploy a set of arguments and strategies for achieving fundamental human rights.

International law is an evolving and becoming thing. Slowly but surely, it is becoming more deliberately inclusive of sexual rights and of sexual and gender diverse people. Decisions by the UN Human Rights Committee, by various UN treaty bodies, by the European Commission of Human Rights, by the Inter-American Human Rights Committee, and progress also in Africa at the African Commission on Human Peoples Rights, have provided the basis for some good jurisprudence and for decisions that are having impact in domestic courts as well, in the United States, in New Ghana, in South Africa.

Our collaborative efforts are crucial if we are going to make international human rights law as important as it may be to us, mean anything at all in the lives of people who voices have been reduced. The most important thing I think you can do as lawyers, and we can do as activists, and we can do together, is to contribute to social change that positively affects the lived realities of those whose voices are muffled.

It is all very well to know that you have the right to equality, as expressed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, or the right to life that is guaranteed in your National Constitution, or the right to health that is guaranteed in the African Charter, but none of this means a thing to you if you are not able to see those rights manifest.

You are having a roof over your head through consistent and respectful employment, through being able to have a family, however you define having a family, and through being able to access healthcare, particularly HIV prevention strategies, cancer prevention strategies, and from just plain feeling safe on the streets.

For most LGBT people around the world, these rights are far from realized. The fact that their continued imprisonment in Malawi is illegal under international conventions will only mean something to Tionga Chimbalamba and Steven Monjesa if their lawyers can challenge the homophobia of the courts, of the media, and the community to hold the government of Malawi to its commitments.

The laws offers, we know, a powerful tool for change, but changing laws and official policies are not enough. People arrested in countries that have never had criminal laws, laws criminalizing same sex relationships on the basis of presumed sexual orientation, people get arrested under other laws.

People get arrested under morality laws. People get arrested in Kenya for loitering, for vagrancy. People get arrested for vagabondry. It's my favorite. And the lesbians, bisexual women, and transgender men, the policing of behavior as I've said often happens outside of the legal sphere in the home, in the church, on the bus, in the community.

The organizations that we work with at the grass roots level every day reminds us that there's a false tension being created between legally sound human rights arguments on one side, false tension, and the notions of culture and tradition. These tensions may limit the kinds of legal claims that the sexual rights movement can make.

Tactical choices that may be logical for the movement in one nation may be completely illogical and even counterproductive in others. Many argue that law must reflect the beliefs or morals of a society.

Others see law as an instrument to influence these beliefs and to ensure that the power of the state is used to bring about a society in which the inherent rights of individuals are respected and protected from the tyranny of the majority.

However one views such a debate in making decisions about deploying international human rights claims, whether through courts or pushing through legislation, we must take into account the particular political realities of the national context. The time was ripe for the reading down of 377 in Delhi.

It had been prepared. There was a movement. There were activists working at multiple levels. There was media engagement. Local activists also believe that the time may be ripe for a similar challenge to the sodomy laws in Botswana and laws against cross-dressing in Guyana.

Advocates in other countries are clear that such head-on legal challenges could seriously damage LGBT rights movements in other places. An attempt nearly 10 years ago to challenge the sodomy laws in Botswana had pretty disastrous consequences. This was 10 years ago. We're having the same challenge to sodomy laws in Botswana now.

But 10 years ago the argument was made that there was a sodomy law, and it said that men who have sex with other men are subject to, I think it was, 14 years of imprisonment and that that was discriminatory and unfair.

So what the high court of Botswana did was they said, "OK. Well, what we will do is we will make it also illegal for women who have sex with women to have sexual relations. Now we have equality. So be careful about those equality arguments.

But it's 10 years later. There's been some change. There's been some work. There's a movement in Botswana today, and maybe the decision that will be made by the courts this time will be different. These decisions can lead to lasting and significant change.

Yes, indeed. I will.

Woman 1:

[laughs] [pauses]


Moving along.



OK. So in the final analysis...



I was asked to talk to you about the global LGBT rights movement and to put some context on it in terms of how our organization approaches that movement. What I'd like to ask you to do is I'd like to ask that whatever path you take as lawyers, as legal scholars, that you become part of this movement. There are many different ways to become part of this movement. There's activity that you can take to write letters. There's activities that you could take to show up at demonstrations. There's ways in which you can join forces with lawyers in other parts of the world that are challenging laws. There's money. There's checks that you can write to help movements to keep pushing forward.

And the question becomes, I guess, why? I'm standing here asking you to join forces. Not so much with me and my organization, but to join forces with the LGBT people in Indonesia, who just a month ago had to fight off Islamic Fundamentalists who were surrounding the hotel in which they were hosting a conference.

Actually, that conference was shut down by the cacophony of those voices. Shut down. The argument ended, OK? So I'm asking you to join forces with LGBT people in Indonesia, in Iraq, in Jamaica. And why? Because they have it rougher than us? Yes. In many parts of the world the situation is a lot worse.

Why should you join forces? Because U. S. evangelicals are taking their show on the road and using U. S. resources to promote homophobic and hateful agendas? Yes, that's another reason you should get involved.

Why else? Because the United States and countries like Britain have played a role in the legal regimes and frameworks that remain in many parts of the formally colonized world? Yes, that's another reason. But most importantly, I think you should get involved because we move forward as a movement.

In this global village, in this modernized, globalized, Internet-savvy technology leapfrogging, globetrotting world, we move forward as a movement. And we can't leave any part of our movement behind. That's our responsibility. We're as strong as our weakest link, and we're as fearless as our strongest ally. That's why I invite you to join me, to join us on the struggle.

So I'm going to ask. If you have any questions, I'm happy to talk about anything that I've raised or if there's any other questions you have. My expertise are in Africa and the Caribbean, but I'm happy to talk about anything you might want to raise. Yes?

Woman 2:

[inaudible 40:52]


Oh, yes.

[pauses for inaudible question]

Great. Yeah, as an international LGBT movement, the inter sex work is work that we're all really just starting to undertake. What we are doing is we're hosting. I can't answer you specifically in terms of legal action, but what I do know is that we're being supportive to inter sex movements around the world that are making choices about how to do battle with courts both domestically and internationally around inter sex issues. For example, there's a growing inter sex movement in Uganda that we are part of helping to support. Yeah? Yes. Maybe just one more?

Woman 3:

OK. Then [indecipherable 41:51] .


[indecipherable 41:55]

[pauses for inaudible question]


As I mentioned, what we do is we support the work of local movements. The LGBT movement in China is emerging very strongly, and I know that LGBT activists in China are addressing the issue of China's forced testing and other issues related to China's HIV policies. I can't say much more to you about it than that.


May I ask to please join me in thanking... [applause] .

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